Studio One 4 Bend Tool
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| I want some opinions if I can find any before I start a pretty major project. If I perceive it correctly, the audio quantize in these programs seem to be built on different theories, in Studio One Three it wants to stretch the loudest or hottest part of a signal to the middle of a gridline, and I think in melodyne add on it wants to move individual note signals so that the start of each signal begins at a grid line. So these seem to be two fundamentally different theories. Are they subjective, which I should I choose before I work on an album of songs in your opinion? |
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| They are subjective and it depends what sort of material you will be using them on. If it is vocals I'd suggest using neither of them and just manually edit any syllables that sound out of time. The wholescale quantize thing just never seems to give good results on vocals in S1 or other DAWs for that matter. So you really need to try both methods on your source material. Of course you can mix and match the methods. The ultimate judge is your ear. Studio One Pro 4.5, Intel i5-8400 @ 2.8GHz, 32GB RAM, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 (2nd Gen), Akai MPK Mini MKII, Novation Remote 25 (ancient, but not as ancient as I am) |
| Exactly as IanM5 mentions. Along with subjective, you have to see how each Interprets both notes, timing, and separation. With Melodyne Editor, you'll have multiple notes separated, making adjustments somewhat easier, though it still comes down to how ARA see's those notes in its window. I'm not big on quantization, but both Studio One and Melodyne have different strengths. If you're quantizing to adjust tempo, Melodyne is tough to beat (there's a pun in there somewhere). However, if your looking to quantize to a groove, Studio One will allow you to select another tracks groove, for example a guitar rhythm track, and that groove could be dragged into the track to capture that same feel. Both S1, and Melodyne locate notes at transient peaks. Melodyne doesnt relocate a note at the start, but at its peak, or transient as does S1. This works well for timing, but can leave a chopped, or cut off part at the beginning of an event, which Melodyne seems to be a little more forgiving. What I always recommend when editing with Melodyne or adjusting transients with the bend tool with Studio One is always expand the start and end of an event to allow the natural leading, and trailing edge of notes at those ends. If I'm fixing a lot of notes from guitar strumming, or percussion, vocals, etc. I prefer the bend tool in Studio One (and the drag in feature I mentioned). You can easily use the bend tool where you want and not just at transient peeks for those sensitive areas. Melodyne is way more finicky, and quess work involved to do that same task. However, if I'm needing more of a visual and virtual way of changing notes per time, or pitch, Melodyne is amazing when it deciphers those notes properly from the start. There's times it won't, due to such complexities of sound (harmonics, sympathetic vibrations, etc.). Then it places multiple blobs around, as it's algorithms interpret them. Therefore, you have to preview what could be potential problems beforehand. Quantizing is a slippery slope so use both Melodyne, and Studio One's groove quantize with care. They're both amazing, as they are a little faulty. That fault isn't a dis, either. This is pretty impressive stuff when it comes to manipulating audio. S1 Pro 4.5.x, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8 core, Win 7 64x. Audio Interface: Audiobox 22 VSL, Audiophile 192 Controllers: Arturia Keylab 49 MkII, Novation SL25 MKII, Faderport 8, Roland JV-90, Roland GR-50, Roland Octapad, Akai MPD-18. MIDI Patchbay: MOTU 8x8, Monitors: Mackie HR824, Yamaha HS-7, Mixer: Yamaha Promix 01. Other hardware/Plugins and Libraries, contact me. Latest Album: Amber & Blue My music On Bandcamp On YouTube |
| IanM5 wroteIf it is vocals I'd suggest using neither of them and just manually edit any syllables that sound out of time. The wholescale quantize thing just never seems to give good results on vocals in S1 or other DAWs for that matter. Trying to work with it right now on a track, and coming to find the challenges with it at this moment. I find that I like the these tools better on the instruments, but on the vocals it seems to be calling for a different approach |
| Lokeyfly wroteHowever, if your looking to quantize to a groove, Studio One will allow you to select another tracks groove, for example a guitar rhythm track, and that groove could be dragged into the track to capture that same feel. Indeed, I haven't experimented with that yet , but I foresee an option like that having some unique artistic possibilities. I will probably do something with that in the future Lokeyfly wroteBoth S1, and Melodyne locate notes at transient peaks. Melodyne doesnt relocate a note at the start, but at its peak, or transient as does S1. This works well for timing, but can leave a chopped, or cut off part at the beginning of an event, which Melodyne seems to be a little more forgiving. What I always recommend when editing with Melodyne or adjusting transients with the bend tool with Studio One is always expand the start and end of an event to allow the natural leading, and trailing edge of notes at those ends. I see.. hmm. but they both must use slightly different algorithms though because if you use one after the other, there is a different effect on the waveform. I'm trying to work with what you said about expanding events right now actually , but in melodyne I have to figure out if I can lengthen the end of notes without squashing the one ahead of it. I suppose I need a little more research Lokeyfly wroteIf I'm fixing a lot of notes from guitar strumming, or percussion, vocals, etc. I prefer the bend tool in Studio One (and the drag in feature I mentioned). You can easily use the bend tool where you want and not just at transient peeks for those sensitive areas. Melodyne is way more finicky, and quess work involved to do that same task. However, if I'm needing more of a visual and virtual way of changing notes per time, or pitch, Melodyne is amazing when it deciphers those notes properly from the start. There's times it won't, due to such complexities of sound (harmonics, sympathetic vibrations, etc.). Then it places multiple blobs around, as it's algorithms interpret them. Therefore, you have to preview what could be potential problems beforehand. I see. currently I'm opting to use melodyne for the quantization on a song I've been working on for a few days. but I will experiment with the studio one bend tool on other projects As for pitch, I'm shocked by how much the human vocal wavers (or at least mine does) almost chromatically at times up and down key map. and I have been singing for as long as I've been playing instruments, so I'm not new at it but. when you look at how the line intercepts up and down around the blobs it's no wonder that it can be a difficult thing to quantize while retaining humanness. there's a lot of math in there that can't take being disturbed unless your very careful, which may be why one may not want to quantize it all that much, but only subtly Lokeyfly wroteQuantizing is a slippery slope so use both Melodyne, and Studio One's groove quantize with care. They're both amazing, as they are a little faulty. That fault isn't a dis, either. This is pretty impressive stuff when it comes to manipulating audio. Indeed. and even if they are faulty and in you are into the avant garde , one can probably even make use of the faults |
Studio One 4 Bend Tool Box
| I'm a big fan of using audio bend to manually move stuff around that's poorly timed. I don't get too crazy, just if there's a vocal or bass hit that particularly sticks out to me I'll switch over real quick, add some bend markers and move it around. I don't ever 'quantize'--I use my ears and my eyes (ears first always) Lenovo Thinkpad with Windows 10 64-bit, 16GB RAM, i7 3740QM 2.7GHz Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 Gen 1 Studio One 4.1 Pro |
| codyhazelle wroteI'm a big fan of using audio bend to manually move stuff around that's poorly timed. I don't get too crazy, just if there's a vocal or bass hit that particularly sticks out to me I'll switch over real quick, add some bend markers and move it around. I don't ever 'quantize'--I use my ears and my eyes (ears first always) For me , these things seem to get easy to overuse. I'll bet trying to use these tools tastefully is probably one the hardest things in the music engineering world. maybe I should use my ears more with all this stuff |
| cormackabbott wrotecodyhazelle wroteI'm a big fan of using audio bend to manually move stuff around that's poorly timed. I don't get too crazy, just if there's a vocal or bass hit that particularly sticks out to me I'll switch over real quick, add some bend markers and move it around. I don't ever 'quantize'--I use my ears and my eyes (ears first always) Rick Beato had a great video on how quantized drum parts killed rock n roll's feel. I'm not against quantization, but I find myself going more and more without it. If something is particularly bad, I'll just re-record it (there's a concept!) or nudge it around slightly. I've gotten more used to ignoring what the grid looks like ('yikes, i was a bit early on this one, and a bit late on this other one..') and just going 100% by ear. Do I like how it sounds? Does it sound human and real? Then leave it like it is. Also a helpful anecdote: When Prince recorded Purple Rain using the Linn Drum he didn't use the sequencer on it--he finger drummed everything straight to tape. I'm sure he did multiple takes and over dubs for those hats and shakers, but I can bet kick+snare was just him and his fingers. Lenovo Thinkpad with Windows 10 64-bit, 16GB RAM, i7 3740QM 2.7GHz Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 Gen 1 Studio One 4.1 Pro |
| codyhazelle wroteI'm not against quantization, but I find myself going more and more without it. If something is particularly bad, I'll just re-record it (there's a concept!) or nudge it around slightly. I'll check out that video , but it's hard for me to get away from the tightness that I can get from quantizing a highly rhythmic instrument or drum rhythm. And I know what you mean about the grid, but it sucks me in. I remember when I started out on analog tape multi-trackers with nothing to look at, it didn't weigh on my mind then, but now since it's there it does. I'm trying to develop a philosophy toward the whole thing, since it's hard to escape. It seems like things at the foundation of a track should by nature receive the most of it , and gradually as you ascend to the vocal which is at the top of the pyramid , it should receive the least dabbling. |
| Another thing to look at before you reach for the quantize is the overall trend in the timing. For example, I have a terrible habit of being a bit, um, premature. Whether I'm playing guitar, keys or singing I am fairly consistently a tad ahead of the beat. I used to spend ages shoving individual notes around but now I often set the (inspector) track delay by ear to somewhere between 50ms and 100ms before I start tweaking individual notes. It depends on the genre of music you are making but start with using your ears then worry about the grid if you are still not happy. Studio One Pro 4.5, Intel i5-8400 @ 2.8GHz, 32GB RAM, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 (2nd Gen), Akai MPK Mini MKII, Novation Remote 25 (ancient, but not as ancient as I am) |
| cormackabbott wrote: I see.. hmm. but they both must use slightly different algorithms though because if you use one after the other, there is a different effect on the waveform. The Celemony website goes into a lot of the workings of ARA theory. Enough to capture it's benefits, and how Melodyne deciphers reads pitch from audio. It's interesting, so check that out. I can't say how their algorithms differ, but Melodyne obviously runs deep due to the way it actually sees data. With Melodyne, there's more of a larger window to interpret from, so they know they are class leading on that front over any pitch to MIDI conversion process. Melodyne call their resultant notes 'blobs', and are very different from how audio amplitude is usually depicted. As to transient detection both Studio One and Melodyne seem to capture notes at those peaks relatively the same as that is pretty indicative of where a note can be placed in a beat, or grid. If notes were determined at the initial (readable) decibale threashold or its attack slope, that would be a problem with timing, so that was my only point about considering them the same. Timing with both transient detection, and Melodyne editing are quite good, if the audio isn't heavily masked with other background stuff. I'm trying to work with what you said about expanding events right now actually , but in melodyne I have to figure out if I can lengthen the end of notes without squashing the one ahead of it. I suppose I need a little more research. With Melodyne Studio, or Editor version, notes will not collide, because they are polyphonic, so pitch is separated, as best as possible. Best as possible meaning it can't read every pitch, overtone, transient anomoly perfectly when weeding through sound. Results will at times have some frequencies casted off in some form of garble, simply because it can't reliably place it with some other pitch. So yes, with Melodyne, you're seeing waveform isolation that is very different. You neednt worry about colliding notes with Melodyne, with the Editor version or Studio version. Notes can be moved freely past others and often gives really great results. Stretching notes, not so great. That's just due to the nature of sound itself. Typically, sound oscillates, and once a section gets lengthened, there's a loss in realism that our ears pick out with ease. I'm sure Celemony and others will get better with that in time. Note:Melodyne essential is a great and free package bundled with Studio One and now with a few other DAW's, but it is limited with such note editing. A voice, flute, or other monophonic instrument source it will handle nicely, but I'd suspect notes would run into each other because of the limited editing potential it has. currently I'm opting to use melodyne for the quantization on a song I've been working on for a few days. but I will experiment with the studio one bend tool on other projects. Absolutely. Work with both, or what you're comfortable with. I'm sure you'll find uses for each them. Indeed. and even if they are faulty and in you are into the avant garde , one can probably even make use of the faults Creative accidents are wonderful. Avant garde is wonderful. From a technology standpoint, we live in extoadinary times. Enjoy the road ahead my friend. JT S1 Pro 4.5.x, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8 core, Win 7 64x. Audio Interface: Audiobox 22 VSL, Audiophile 192 Controllers: Arturia Keylab 49 MkII, Novation SL25 MKII, Faderport 8, Roland JV-90, Roland GR-50, Roland Octapad, Akai MPD-18. MIDI Patchbay: MOTU 8x8, Monitors: Mackie HR824, Yamaha HS-7, Mixer: Yamaha Promix 01. Other hardware/Plugins and Libraries, contact me. Latest Album: Amber & Blue My music On Bandcamp On YouTube |
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The omnisphere 2 patch browser. Select the Folder Icon Button or click on the Patch Name Display to open the Full Patch Browser. Full Patch Browser The Patch Browser can also be accessed from the Mixer page (Patch Name Displays), from the LIVE MODE page when Mixer Controls are enabled, and from the STACK MODE by control/right-click its Part Region and selecting the “Popup browser to choose new patch” option from the context.